Dr.Hiroshi NISHIMURA
The biggest problem is the organization. During the first wave, I was working in the cluster task force of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, and there were several thick walls before the results of the analysis reached the Prime Minister's Office, which made policy decisions. The bureaucratic system did not mesh well with policy decisions based on scientific findings.
I met with Mr. Katsunobu Kato, then Minister of Health, Labor and Welfare, on a daily basis and was able to say some pretty harsh things to him. However, the recommendations of the experts were not directly submitted to the meeting at the Prime Minister's Office. They are coordinated within the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, and finally conveyed to the Prime Minister's Office by the Administrative Vice-Minister or the Chief Medical Technologist.
There was a lot of friction between the experts and the MHLW and the government.
There was a lot of friction between the experts and the MHLW and the government. "During the first wave, there was always a 'storm' about two days before the meeting. Before the expert meeting on March 19 last year, there was a lot of shouting. I did a simulation of the number of critically ill patients and presented an estimate to the meeting that there would be a shortage of hospital beds if things continued as they were, but the MHLW side was very much against it, saying it would cause confusion. On the other hand, just before the meeting, the government side said, 'We will introduce another measure like this. Some of the materials were circulated the night before the meeting, so it was impossible to adopt or change the experts' opinions.
西浦博教授が語る
一番大きいのは組織の問題です。第1波のとき、私は厚生労働省のクラスター対策班で仕事をしていたのですが、そこで分析した結果が、政策的な判断を下す官邸に届くまでに、厚い壁のようなものが何枚もありました。科学的な知見を採り入れた政策判断と、官僚制システムがかみ合っていない。
「当時の厚労大臣だった加藤勝信さんには毎日のように会って、かなり厳しいことも言わせてもらっていました。しかし、その後、官邸での会議に専門家の提言が直接出されるわけではないのです。厚労省内で調整して、ようやく事務次官や医系技官のトップの医務技監が官邸に伝える」
専門家と厚労省や政府との間でかなり摩擦があった。
「第1波のときは、いつも会議の前々日くらいから、『嵐』が起きていました。昨年3月19日の専門家会議の前には、それこそ怒号が飛び交うような状態でした。僕は重症者数のシミュレーションをして、このままだと病床が足りなくなるという試算を会議に出したのですが、厚労省側からは『混乱を招く』と大反対された。一方で、会議の直前になって、政府側から『こういう別の対策が入ります』と言ってくる。前日の夜に資料が回覧されるものもあり、専門家の意見を採り入れたり、変えたりできない状態でした」
The biggest problem is the organization. During the first wave, I was working in the cluster task force of the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, and there were several thick walls before the results of the analysis reached the Prime Minister's Office, which made policy decisions. The bureaucratic system did not mesh well with policy decisions based on scientific findings.
I met with Mr. Katsunobu Kato, then Minister of Health, Labor and Welfare, on a daily basis and was able to say some pretty harsh things to him. However, the recommendations of the experts were not directly submitted to the meeting at the Prime Minister's Office. They are coordinated within the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, and finally conveyed to the Prime Minister's Office by the Administrative Vice-Minister or the Chief Medical Technologist.
There was a lot of friction between the experts and the MHLW and the government.
There was a lot of friction between the experts and the MHLW and the government. "During the first wave, there was always a 'storm' about two days before the meeting. Before the expert meeting on March 19 last year, there was a lot of shouting. I did a simulation of the number of critically ill patients and presented an estimate to the meeting that there would be a shortage of hospital beds if things continued as they were, but the MHLW side was very much against it, saying it would cause confusion. On the other hand, just before the meeting, the government side said, 'We will introduce another measure like this. Some of the materials were circulated the night before the meeting, so it was impossible to adopt or change the experts' opinions.
西浦博教授が語る
一番大きいのは組織の問題です。第1波のとき、私は厚生労働省のクラスター対策班で仕事をしていたのですが、そこで分析した結果が、政策的な判断を下す官邸に届くまでに、厚い壁のようなものが何枚もありました。科学的な知見を採り入れた政策判断と、官僚制システムがかみ合っていない。
「当時の厚労大臣だった加藤勝信さんには毎日のように会って、かなり厳しいことも言わせてもらっていました。しかし、その後、官邸での会議に専門家の提言が直接出されるわけではないのです。厚労省内で調整して、ようやく事務次官や医系技官のトップの医務技監が官邸に伝える」
専門家と厚労省や政府との間でかなり摩擦があった。
「第1波のときは、いつも会議の前々日くらいから、『嵐』が起きていました。昨年3月19日の専門家会議の前には、それこそ怒号が飛び交うような状態でした。僕は重症者数のシミュレーションをして、このままだと病床が足りなくなるという試算を会議に出したのですが、厚労省側からは『混乱を招く』と大反対された。一方で、会議の直前になって、政府側から『こういう別の対策が入ります』と言ってくる。前日の夜に資料が回覧されるものもあり、専門家の意見を採り入れたり、変えたりできない状態でした」
