先日のBPhとのマーラーに感動した勢いで、今まで読んだことのあるハイティンク関連のネット記事の一部を纏めてみました。せっかくなので、ここにもアップ。べつに暇なわけではなく、仕事が忙しすぎるための現実逃避です
もともと2015年のLSOとのブルックナー＆ブラームスに感動した後に英語の勉強も兼ねてネットで拾い読みしたもので、普段私がクラシック関係の記事をこんなに読みまくっているわけでは全くございません。
著名な指揮者の方達の仲の良し悪しについては全く知りませんが（クラシックファンの方達はお詳しいと思いますが）、ハイティンクのインタビューにでてくる”Simon”や、ラトルのインタビューにでてくる”Bernard”はなんか好きだったりします。なので、そんな感じの記事を中心に。全文は雑誌名のリンクから読めますです。
ところでハイティンクは今の奥さまが４人目？だと思いますが（それまでは人との付き合いに壁を作っていたが、今の奥様に出会えたことで変われた、みたいなことが下のどれかの記事に書いてあったような）、ラトルも３人目？なのですよね。私には計り知れない世界です
昔の記事も多いので、あくまでお暇つぶし程度にどうぞ～。でも私のような永遠のクラシック初心者には興味深い記事も多かったです
Bernard Haitink: unfinished symphony
“Amsterdam is halfway between Berlin and Vienna. They’re not as macho as Berlin - in a good performance they have more transparency than a Germanic orchestra because they play so much French music. The texture is lighter. I don’t want to be nasty to Chailly , but the sound changed. Then, when I heard them this summer with Mariss, I thought, ‘Yes, that is the old Concertgebouw again.’”
（OCTOBER 23, 2004, Financial Tims）
確かヤンソンスさんも就任したときに、コンセルトヘボウの団員達から「昔の（ハイティンクの頃の）音に戻したい」と言われた、とインタビューで仰っていましたね。
The passion and pain of Bernard Haitink
Simon Rattle says he can tell when Haitink has conducted his own orchestra, the Berlin Philharmonic, because they sound more relaxed, spacious and expressive.
(22 September 2009, The guardian)
でもこのラトルの素敵な言葉に対するハイティンクの反応は”pained expression”なの。。。
そしてマーラー９番のラストの静寂の意味について語り、その後の無粋なブラボーについて笑うハイティンクに、記者は”but he is deadly serious: anything that gets in the way of the music is his enemy.”と。
また、バッハは宗教的すぎると感じるのに対しブルックナーの宗教性をどう感じているのか？の質問には、
With the CSO, Haitink is touring four other composers he loves: Haydn, Mozart, Brahms and Bruckner. I wonder how he can find Bach's music too religious yet feel an affinity with Bruckner, one of the most devoutly Catholic composers. "This music speaks to me," he says. "Yes, there is a very strong Roman Catholic feeling, but . . ." His words dry up, so I try again. Does he find Bruckner's music – the Seventh Symphony, say – a spiritual experience? "It's very difficult to talk about this," he says at last.
Far easier simply to conduct it: as ever with Haitink, the performances will do the talking.
ブルックナーの音楽がこの人に語りかけるように、この人も言葉ではなくその指揮から生み出される音楽で語る人ですね。
Simon Rattle interview: happy to be home
Are there things about home that he misses? “Oh, the ease of humour and understanding in one’s language is something I miss. I have a lot of German, but it’s still at Sesame Street level as far as grammar goes. The orchestra laughs in a friendly way now.” And have there been culture-clashes in his relationship with the orchestra? “Oh, there’s always that problem with the British love of euphemism. I remember Bernard Haitink saying to me ’do you know what I can’t stand about the British? It’s when they say ’I’m afraid I can’t do this’. They’re not afraid at all, they just don’t want to do it!’. In the early days the players would give me a strange look and say ’Simon, we don’t know what you’re talking about. Stop being polite! Just say what you mean!’ I thought I was fairly Northern, but compared to the Germans I’m not Northern at all.”
(4 Mar 2010, The Telegraph)
「They’re not afraid at all, they just don’t want to do it！」
ここ、実際的なオランダ人ともってまわった言い回しがお国柄なイギリス人の会話という感じがして、すごく好き笑 
Bernard Haitink will conduct the Vienna Philharmonic at the Lucerne Festival.
Thomas Wördehoff visited him at Kastanienbaum and reveals the great conductor's professional secrets.
He's concerned about current developments in this regard – "Because the practice of performance has already changed a great deal: The louder and faster the music is played, the more successful the performance will be." Nevertheless, the Dutchman's straightforward system makes its mark. Simon Rattle says that the Berlin Philharmonic always sounds different after Haitink has conducted it. More serene, more expansive, more expressive.
(17 June 2013, Credit Suisse *上はgoogleによる英訳)
ふむ。
Interview with Simon Rattle The first Puccini
―Have Carlos Kleiber experienced as an opera conductor?
Yes, I once sat in a "Otello" at Covent Garden in London with Bernard Haitink in the orchestra pit - Haitink was then chief conductor of the opera house - and we watched as Kleiber conducted. After ten minutes, Bernard leaned over to me and whispered: "Simon, I do not know about you, but my conducting studies is just beginning." So it was for all of us in terms of Kleiber. It was a master class, what to do as a conductor, for those who can not.
(11 April 2014, stuttgarter-zeitung.de *上はgoogleによる英訳)
同じくこの日のクライバーについての、ハイティンクのインタビュー↓。
'I started far too young. I still have sleepless nights ...'
He talks about conductors he admires. The list starts with Carlos Kleiber. Simon Rattle tells the story of how he and Haitink were sitting in a Covent Garden box at a closed Kleiber rehearsal of Otello. When it ended, Haitink turned to Rattle and said: "Well, I don't know about you, but I think that my studies in this art have only just begun."
"Yes, that is true," he says now. "I'm not ashamed of saying that. When I have listened to Kleiber, I always think, 'My God, he knows his scores so well.' He is a fanatic. He looks at every manuscript and he will dig out every note, every detail, every query." For the young Haitink, though, the key figure was Wilhelm Furtwängler.
(5 March 2004, The Guardian)
で、ハイティンクがラトルに話しかけたのは演奏開始10分後なの？終了後なの？どっちなの？
敬愛する指揮者はカルロス・クライバー、フルトヴェングラーと（でもフルトヴェングラーのブル８の録音は嫌いと）。特別な位置を占める作曲家はブルックナー、マーラー、ショスタコーヴィチ。
この記事では、各オーケストラの特徴についても話されています。
How does he characterise these mighty beasts of the orchestral jungle? Haitink starts his reply with the Berliners, with whom he is doing a two-week stint as we speak. "I love the open way they attack the music. It is so positive. When they play with conductors they don't like, they ignore him; but when they play with conductors they like, they really add something very positive."
What about Vienna? "Well, you never know with Vienna because they have an enormous number of players, and you have to wait and see who plays. They don't have a music director. They play the same pieces more than once in a season with different conductors. I think in their hearts they are arrogant. They think, 'It doesn't matter who conducts us, we are the Vienna Philharmonic.' Very dangerous attitude. But they are of course extremely good musicians."
ベルリンフィルもウィーンフィルも怖すぎる😨 そんな強烈などちらの楽団とも良好な関係を保っているハイティンクだけど、ご自身が首席指揮者になった楽団とは全て円満に終わっていないんですよね（シカゴ響は例外）。面倒見のいい性格のようなので、首席になるとその責任感から中途半端な関わり方をしたくないのでしょうね。
そして同じ記事に再びSimonさん登場↓
Haitink especially looks forward to the Third: "The Berlin Philharmonic has played a lot of Mahler, but Simon has said to soft-pedal it. But he made an exception for me because I said I would like to do Mahler Three. It's a huge canvas, with wonderful things in it, and difficult to organise. It is not a routine thing. I said I would like to do it once more in my life."
ラトルさん、いい人だ。。。ちなみにハイティンクとクライバーの間にはこんなエピソードも
↓
Haitink and Kleiber were friends. Carlos's pal Isao Hirowatari remembered a particular gift. "He was on very good terms with Haitink. He must have loved the orange vinyl bag that Haitink presented him 20 years ago. Kleiber kept using it, even replacing its handle three times." Haitink, whom I interviewed in late 2004, recalled the bag as something he purchased at Harrod's, the London department store. When told that Kleiber still had it and kept replacing its handle, Haitink laughed out loud. "That's Carlos!"
(Charles Barber "Corresponding with Carlos: A Biography of Carlos Kleiber")
ハイティンクが20年前にプレゼントしたハロッズのバッグを持ち手を３回変えて使い続けているカルロスさん。お二人は仲のいい友人だったんですね。このお二人が気が合うのはなんかわかる気がします。思わず薔薇の騎士のDVDを買ってしまったわ。
※追記：このエピードを紹介している広渡勲さんは『マエストロ、ようこそ』（2020年刊）の著者の方で、クライバーと家族同然のつき合いをされていた方ですね。
さて、話をラトルさんに戻して。
Simon Rattle: 'Learning music is a birthright. And you have to start young'
ーOne of our greatest conductors, Sir Bernard Haitink, said recently too much fuss is made about conductors and conducting.
Oh bless him! Isn't he exactly right? For someone who can produce such mystery and grandeur in his performances, he's one of the least grand or mysterious of people I know. He's really saying we're artisans, we're workers. Conductors make too much fuss about conductors! Humility and hard work are virtues. We're nothing without our musicians.
(31 August 2014, the guardian)
”Conductors make too much fuss about conductors!”
英語ってリズムのいい言語よね笑。でもハイティンクは別にconductorsが騒いでいるとは言っていないような。ラトルがそう感じているのかな。
Dutch conductor Bernard Haitink and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra have enjoyed a collaboration lasting decades. However, it is not only this orchestra that treasures this artist. When asked with which conductor he most liked to hear his orchestra playing, Sir Simon Rattle immediately named Haitink.
（28 Mar 2015, Festival hall baden baden)
ラトルさん、いい人だ
。常日頃日本のクラシックファンの方達のハイティンクに対する評価のあまりの低さに悲しい思いをしているので（どうして日本の人達ってハイティンクに対してあんなに上から目線なのでしょう・・・）、ヤンソンスやラトルがこういう言葉を言ってくれると嬉しくなってしまう。
RATTLE THINKS LSO WORKS TOO HARD
“They work in a different way [from the Berlin Phil]. They work much too hard, I think. I think that everybody is aware that every orchestra in London works much too hard, and the LSO in particular. I hope to find a way that that can be tempered. So that people have time to breathe and be their best. What Bernard Haitink said to me: When you have a chance to tour with the orchestra and play the pieces a few more times and they are rested and that they can be as good as any orchestra. I’m sure this is true. The experiences we have had so far have been a deep joy and the welcome has been so touching. They love the orchestra and they love each other. It is a very family orientated group in that way. They really look after each other. That is very moving to see.”
(9 January 2016, acge.net)
Sir Simon Rattle: 'Music can’t be a matter of privilege or chance'
The conductor Bernard Haitink once told Rattle the LSO could play better than anyone could imagine if they had the chance to rehearse together. “They are trying to run a marathon in a crowded lift,” says Rattle, his accent signalling his Liverpool origins. “They go up the walls. If they had the conditions that exist elsewhere in the world, there is so much more they could do.
I mean, my orchestra here, they work hard, but if they worked the LSO schedule for a month they would all be in hospital.
(6 June 2016, Evening Standard）
ハイティンクからラトルへ、LSOを指揮する際のアドバイス。
少なくとも仲は悪くはなさそうですよね、このお二人。
指揮者の世界ってドロドロな政治的陰謀がうずまいていそうなイメージが勝手にあるんですけど、ハイティンクってそういうものに関わるのを面倒くさがりそうな感じですし、ラトルとは歳も違いますしね。
ところでお二人がここまで言うLSOってどれだけハードワークなんでしょう。。。昔からなのかしら、あるいはゲルギエフになってからなのかしら。。。
【番外編：バレンボイム→ラトル】
He is a friend. Sometimes we don’t see each other for months. Then we meet and it feels like yesterday. It is a friendship which does not need frequency. On Monday, Simon Rattle celebrates a birthday. Last time, I called and congratulated him. I’m twelve years older than him and I joked at the time: Simon, enjoy the 50, I can tell you one thing, 50 is better than 60. This time, I’ll tell him: Enjoy the 60, but 70 is even better. I first experienced Simon Rattle when he was 19, playing timpani in the English (National) Youth Orchestra. It was a performance of Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring” under the baton of Pierre Boulez. We did not speak at that time. I met Simon in 1978 in Orange. During the festival, the Roman Theatre, Saint-Saens’ opera “Samson et Dalila” with Placido Domingo. Simon was on a private visit. That was the beginning. When we meet now, we have so much to talk about. We talk about Berlin, about England, about the Middle East. Simon has always been very interested in the West-East Diwan Orchestra. Of course, we talk about music, sometimes just about food.
（Barenboim writes birthday ode to Simon Rattle, Jan 2016)
バレンボイムさんはヤンソンスさんの指揮で楽しそうにピアノを弾いてる映像も先日流れてましたね。指揮者の皆さんが仲が宜しいのは聴衆にとっても嬉しいことですね
【その他ハイティンク関連のインタビューや記事】
※Why Doesn't Bernard Haitink Act Like a Superstar? (21 November 1991, The New York Times)
“I'm not a conductor type,” Haitink admitted on the eve of the Chicago performance that began his third America9 tour with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, which arrives in New York for two Carnegie Hall concerts tonight and Monday. He knows a lot about Georg Solti, Zubin Mehta acid Herbert von Karajan, and he feels he is not one of them. He doesn't want to make himself into a personage. The permanent conductor of the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, artistic director of the London Philharmonic and music director‐elect of the Glyndebourne Festival Opera is still two years short of his 50th birthday, still a little cautious, and, although he is one of the most highly regarded conductors in the world, still not acting the part.
Haitink grew up among orchestras, studying the violin in his native Amsterdam, playing the instrument ('badly,” he recalls) in the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic, and pursuing conducting with Felix Hupka and Ferdinand Leaner. Living in a country with a rich symphonic tradition, he advanced fast, becoming Leitner's assistant with the Netherlands Radio Union orchestras in 1955 (age 26), principal conductor of the Radio Philharmonic in 1957, co‐conductor with Eugen Jochum of the Amsterdam Concertgebouw in 1961 and permanent conductor and artistic director of that orchestra three years later, at the tender•for conductors age of 35.
“ I was far too young,” Haitink says with characteristic frankness, remembering his early years with the Concertgebouw. “Only for the last seven years or so have I been really in charge. It took me a long time to reach a certain standard. But I'm happy with it now.”
He developed not only appreciation, but respect and sympathy for the groups of people who make up orchestras. Rather than confront an ensemble with his own strict pattern, his own sounds and subtleties in mind, he prefers to find an orchestra's strengths and build on them. “I never try to change an orchestra to fit my own ideal,” he explains. “I want to get the best out of an ensemble, but to keep its own character.”
・・・
He will get what he wants, but not by throwing around any power. “My whole personality tells what I want,” he says. “Thank God that we are all different.”
※ For a Reluctant Maestro, Relief, No Regrets, in Berlin (2 June 1991, The New York Times)
1990年のベルリンフィルの芸術監督選びの頃の事について。
"To be honest," he told me a year and a half ago, when Claudio Abbado's appointment was announced, "I never believed it was a serious proposition until they came to me very soon before the decision and said it was very probable that I would be chosen. I knew I couldn't refuse if it was offered, but it would have been hell for me. And I said to them, to be honest, I wouldn't have been the right man for the job. First of all, I'm just a bit too old, and second, I'm just not tough enough with all these commercial pressures which are so incredible now. It gets worse all the time. Is it compact disks which have given the record companies such strength?"
Some 18 months later, as he prepared to lead the Berlin Philharmonic to New York, Mr. Haitink conversed with me again in his room at the Royal Opera House. He seemed unusually relaxed and expansive, without the jumpiness and terseness that sometimes mark his public utterances. He talked quietly but firmly, often with passion, in an accent still tinged by his Dutch upbringing. About the Berlin choice, he said, he still had "no regrets at all."
…
In describing his own personality, Mr. Haitink said, "I am looking more to the past than to the future. That's my problem. But it is not nostalgia. I don't like the way the world is going, but then the world was always a very problematical place."
Is he, perhaps, too reasonable a man to be a conductor? "Ha! Really that's my disadvantage. I'm not tough. But I'm stubborn. That helps me when I step on the platform. That is my world. No telephone calls, nothing can disturb me. Then I am my own master. Those are my best moments, I think."
※Master of the House (14 October 2000, The Guardian)
※A Life in Concert With the Arts （11 March 2002, Los Angels Times)
"The danger now is that orchestras tend to sound like each other. Because maybe the CD, or the international thing. Let's face it. We all travel. Orchestras travel. That's a danger also for artists and for conductors. It's very important that one keeps one's own character."
Haitink's character, at least in conducting, has been called "undemonstrative." He is described as a leader who allows the music to speak for itself. He feels that what's on the page must be respected, but he says that's only the starting point.
He recalls great performances that were not exactly to the letter, he said. "Art is something of human beings, and it would be awful for all of us to do exactly the same thing. Music is such an elusive art. I conduct pieces that I have lived with my whole musical life. I'm grateful for that. It's wonderful to evolve with them. I never get bored."
※An Eminently Rational Man In an Irrational Profession (10 March 2002, The New York Times)
※Bernard Haitink: I love power without responsibility (4 September 2008, The Telegraph)
CSO首席指揮者就任の経緯についてのインタビュー。奥さまにDarlingと呼びかけるマエストロ。
※Bernard Haitink at 80: Maestro sets his sights firmly on the present (1 March 2009, Chicago tribune)
"I love Chicago because of the freedom of the programs I can conduct," the maestro recently observed. "There, I have free choice. The orchestra is always so well prepared. This has been a wonderful four years for me."
誕生日を憎むマエストロ（笑）
※Bernard Haitink: 'Shostakovich was too great to be miserable' (6 October 2013, The Guardian)
"Shostakovich said he had been moved by our concert, and I was terribly moved that he had been so," he adds. What a fitting encounter: between the last great composer of his kind and the last maestro from that golden age of conducting still touring and performing.
※Encyclopedia: Benard Haitink
※Haitink On Brahms 3